Sunday, June 10, 2007

Tyrone Daniels - The Potency of the Prophetic

I was writing about "Quoting on a Spirit-Filled Blog" and happened to mention by way of illustration that Terry Virgo will be meeting with Tyrone Daniels of New Covenant Ministries International (NCMI) shortly. I was greatly encouraged that two great servants of God who are both being used to extend the Kingdom of God are meeting and secretly would love to be a fly on the wall in that meeting! But like my friend Julie I found God has been nudging my heart and my interest to NCMI - primarily through our mutual respect and love for Rob Rufus. So I decided to find and listen to a message by Tyrone Daniels - the leader of NCMI.

My attention was grabbed by this message; "The Potency of the Prophetic" - which Tyrone preached at a conference in Australia and I was greatly impacted and stirred. Here's some notes and quotes that I jotted down;

1. Prophets are needed for Foundation (Ephesians 2:20).

"A lot of what we call unity is actually compromise".

"We don't necessarily have to walk hand in hand but arm in arm".

2. Prophets are needed for Freedom.

3. Prophets are needed to Foretell.

"Prophets should be picking up sin, error, compromise".

4. Prophets are needed for the Future.

"Prophets perceive what is next on God's agenda".

5. Prophets are needed to Firm the Church.

"Prophecy can provide dynamic insight into situations that are not clear in Scripture".

"Prophetic Ministry brings God's priorities, God's purpose, God's power, God's perspective and God's plan".

What Does Prophecy Do?

"Prophecy Restores - dignity, grace. Prophecy Reassures - God's love".

"The function of the New Testament prophet is to help people hear God for themselves".

Like Rob Rufus, I was profoundly impressed that here was a visionary man himself of humility and clearly touched and overwhealmed by God's lavish grace - yet preaching with authority and vision. He adheres to the Word of God and like Newfrontiers - honours it yet is as open as he can be to the Holy Spirit. The message although teaching in content ended with powerful impartation. Tyrone got all those who knew God was calling them to prophetic ministry to stand and he got one of the NCMI prophetic ladies to pray over them. The Presence of God was tangible even on the tape.

Tyrone Daniels is another guy to watch. God's going places with him!


Anonymous said...

Tyrone is a good friend. I'm so glad he was a huge blessing to you!

Anonymous said...

NCMI is a controlling, fringe pentecostal cult. Run for your life!

Sangiro said...

NCMI leadership and members and those who think to join them:I joined the NCMI New Generation Church in Somerset West round about 2001. I was returning to a walk with God. I initially found a “fun” community with people full of character and a heart to follow and worship God. I still had some sinful issues and confided psychologist who was also an elder in the church. He went to the pastor Tapping to tell him about my sinful ways. After the service I was called by pastor Tapping to be told that I must change my sinful ways or leave the church as he, pastor Tapping will not allow, a spirit of lust to take hold of his church. So if you a sinner or are a Christian struggling with sin do you will not find a church that will walk with you till you find victory. Move on and find Christians who will with encouragement and prayer walk with you till you are victorious. NCMI is full of deceitful and people that show a character of unethical behavior and all in the name of God.

Anonymous said...

NCMI is nothing less than control, manipulation and "authority" to the apostles and prophets (they received the "annointing").
Speaking in (so-called) tongues...healing (sometimes you don't get healed, but hey what's the problem...).
Do not get involved with these apostle- and prophet-guys. Once they've got influence....first they get involved with the leaders of the can say goodbye to your brothers and sisters. At least...if you have other theological thoughts about their Ephesians 4-doctrine.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the previous comments. My experience with NCMI was horrible, even to the extent of causing long lasting emotional trauma.
I attended NCF church in Pietermaritzburg, SA, and witnessed emotional and sexual abuse. There was also a high level of financial abuse. The elders where un-educated, not having the slightest clue about theology.
I am glad I left, and was still able to heal my relationship with God, outside of a Charismatic environment.

Anonymous said...

Ephesians 4

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Jesus is come back for one bride - It is our responsibility to make every effort to keep the unity within the church. Slander acheives nothing.

NCMI is run by humans so there are bound to be a number of disgruntled people where ever you go. My experience with NCMI has been a very good one. The guys on the team have given wonderful input into our congregation. Thank you Lord.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the comment above- however, i think we too have a responsibility to caution each other of potential threat- there is toooo much church abuse going on.
our family served as deacons/home cell leaders at our local NCMI church for a period of 5 years.
we were controlled, bullied and very hurt.
i would caution anyone who was thinking of joining an NCMI church.

Anonymous said...

Obviously people have been hurt at Churches that relate to NCMI but every Church is autonomous and led as such by local elders.
The impression that is being given is that all NCMI relating Churches are the same which is completely untrue.
I am sorry that there are wounded hurting people but please stop airing your grievances publicly.What you are doing is destructive, very unhelpful and unbiblical.
I was involved at eldership level with NCMI Churces for over twenty years and yes there were things done and said that I didn't agree with however let's try to bear with each others weaknesses for we are all works in progress.
Besides I wonder how many times those who have made such strongly critical statements against NCMI have hurt or wounded others in a similar way.None of us are perfect.
If we want to receive grace then we need to start dispencing grace.

Anonymous said...

interesting that the above comment says not to air your complaints publically.... like a grown up that tells a child not to say anything about inappropriate contact. You are correct not all churchs NCMI related or not are bad, we still have a responsibility to let others know of wrong doing, its like Megans law.. the person who posted the above comment or all others who say we shouldnt talk about this stuff out loud are control freaks who dont like confrontation. Even Jesus made a whip of cords and began to take swings at those he didnt agree with. No one was forced to listen, but someone wrote it down so others would know. if you have an issue, shout it out, if i dont agree, i will just ignore you. Scream on, you are passionate and will also scream for the good things as well. people who want to silence everyone are silent in life themselves.

Cam said...


interesting back-forth here, hehe. I like what you said Tyrone said about a prophet's function is to help people hear God for themselves.

If, however, that is true, then how many prophets are fulfilling their function, and how does the points made above this point fit in with that?

The thing I've picked up on, is all too many God-followers DON'T know how to hear Him, and are often discouraged from listening to God, and rather to listen to what the elders are saying (maybe not in so many words, but often we're 'brought to reason' by what the elders say, and if we don't do that, often people are shunned because they didn't 'obey the elders')

Another point is - why is there the seemed juxtaposition between the Holy Spirit and the 'Word of God' (I presume you mean the Bible, I don't agree with this definition, but that's another discussion). If the Holy Spirit = God. And the bible is just some of God's words written down, why the tugging between the 2, or is it maybe a tugging between the Holy Spirit and our will (as leaders) to control the meeting?

Do we think the Holy Spirit less wise than us, and so we need to reign Him in? I've seen this all too many times, and it baffles me.

Thanks for a nice post - good teaching is like good food, isn't it!? - just let the Holy Spirit be the one who reveals truth to your spirit, not someone on a pulpit, or a book for that matter - although He uses both, just make sure it's Him you're getting the truth from. Now I'm getting preachy.. sorry :)

Ursula said...

Wow. This has opened a can of worms that I don't think the author meant to open! So here is the thing, this body of christ, we call the Church, or even the Bride of Christ (yep thats us) is so so flawed. All of us. NCMI is no different.

I've just spent a week with some people who have been very hurt by NCMI, and I understand. I have also been in NCMI churches for many years, and although some of my greatest friends have recently left NCMI, there are years of relationships there that cannot be just dropped.

I was in Tom Tappings church, and must say this, he was always a loving father to me, even though I was a difficult teenager full of faults. Thats the church in Somerset West. I know the psychologist whom was spoken about earlier, and agree, as I have sat in on one of his counselling sessions, and he was not a great psychologist, bad actually, but you know, at that time, he was also a really really young psychologist. Do we have no grace when we expect grace?

We need to break the denominational spirit that pervades every single movement it seems, and get off what has happened in the past. God is doing a NEW thing now. He is breaking open boundries, and we MUST have the grace to forgive. You know, its a commandment really. Forgive us our debts, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

We need to look to Him and Him alone, Jesus, our beautiful Jesus, and seek Him alone. The Holy Spirit is God, and He alone is our counsellor, our relationship with this glorious God is not through elders, or deacons or team members....its directly with God.

I'm excited for what God has in store for us as the Body of Christ. But to be a part of it, we need to forgive. We have, each of us, been forgiven much.

I'd like to say this, I am not currently in an NCMI church, neither am I looking to be in one, but should God put me in one, I'm not against that either. I'm looking to be in a church with a heart fully after God, with leaders who love God and the move of His spirit. Whether you are methodist, baptist, NCMI, Harvesters, or call yourself an independant...I don't really care. I'm looking for someone with revival fires burning deep inside of them, who will not compromise, and administers grace and love no matter what.

Anonymous said...

NCMI - never again! I also found the elders very controlling. In addition, the elders are harsh, unforgiving and judgemental. Yes, we are all human but they seem to have an air of self - righteousness.

Friend of Timothy said...

Well, in response to what I have seen on this page, I speak from my experience. I think the NCMI church is a very interesting place. There are many completely sincere and loving Christians there. I have had many deep and real spiritual experiences when in prayer during times of fellowship there. This, I believe, depends on the depth of one's prayer relationship with the Lord - and whether you are praying for others sincerely, are being led by the Spirit, or whether perhaps you are merely running with the momentum of the crowd. It's so easy to be swept up into what "the community" are doing, what "the tribe" is doing, what the local church's principles are, and the particular Christian language everyone speaks. So those who get caught up in this sort of thing are not wrong, they are perhaps just a little lacking in maturity, the depths of their roots haven't penetrated far enough, they have not yet taken root within thmselves deeply in Christ.
My personal experience is that prophetically speaking, the Lord has had much to say to the members of the NCMI churches. These things indicate promise for the times to come. He has a real purpose there and let us seek to find out what it is. Yet in the present dispensation, there appears to be a generalised reluctance to grasp the deeper things of God, a hesitatation to enter into the fellowship of the Spirit as described in 1 John, rather one sees that the move in the groups tends to go with the flow of the community.
I understand that teams who do apostolic work are important, one does not wish to negate or deny the blessings that so many godly men have put into their work, and the benefits that have been bestowed on so many lives.
I think that one has to exercise godly wisdom and caution in not arriving at sudden judgments concerning others' characters. There are also those whom God has appointed as watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem, to pray for the sheep, to announce the glad tidings, and to sound the trumpet of warning. These are men and women who will not readily fit into a tightly structured church organisation like NCMI. But let's be careful and not knock the beautiful work the Lord is doing there by His Spirit. Let's assess the work and the quality of the leadership not by the measure of popularity one sees, but by the basic unchangeables - is the word of God taught and preached accurately (handling accurately the word of truth); is communion shared on a regular basis (every time we break bread we declare the Lord's sufferings); and is there a true fellowship in which the gifts of the Holy Spirit are able to be manifest and employed to the good of the Body of Christ (Corinthians 14 teaches about this subject)?

These are some thoughts and, notwithstanding the hurts, you will find that the individuals are very sincere in what they believe and according to what they are taught. We have to pray pray pray that the Lord will grant maturity and wisdom in a church which has such great potential to reach so many young lives today.

Anonymous said...

I've belonged to five NCMI churches, in different places and have vowed NEVER to return to one. At first everyone is very friendly and seemingly sincere...until one needs help or someone to walk alongside them to get them through a tough time, then there's no one in sight! And when I questioned the reason for this, I was told I did not 'push in' enough, because I have small children and can't attend every Leadership Training meeting or conference that is held. I find a large number of the NCMI followers to be hypocrites who, once you are in the church, show their real colours. I've got many friends who have discovered this for themselves and left NCMI. I have now returned to a more traditional church and found more sincerity and awe of God than I ever found in an NCMI church. The sad thing is that I and my family were so hurt by two ( we actually persevered and remained in NCMI each time we relocated!) NCMI churches (in one the lead elder had an extramarital affair with a then friend)that we couldn't find the strength to trust any church or so called Christian for a long time. I still find it difficult to listen to 'Christians' spouting 'Christianese' and sounding self righteous, it irritates me to distraction. I'd advise anyone to steer clear of NCMI!

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Anonymous said...

First time i've jumped on this site!
Very interesting - I recently was plucked out of the world OVERNIGHT by my FATHER as i didn't mind my bussiness and went up when a pastor in a pentecostal church called people up for ANOINITNG! Almost instantly i could hear the LORD and these eyes could see things the human eye cannot see!!!
Is it possible?......With my calling yes! You see i don't serve any God - I serve "El Shaddai" THE UNLIMITED GOD, the same God that is able to raise me himself in just over 4 months and get me ready for my first calling when i bombard a church!!!!!!!!!
You know with someone who has my calling and with "Authority" when you don't get invited into a church.....It is never good news!

Anything prophetic is for instruction and not destruction saith the lord!

And no i haven't been to a NCMI church as yet, just wanted to share something hopeful for those who are seeking God and can't find him as yet - here's a secret!

God is not part time, devour the word of God on a daily basis, apply it into your daily life and it brings PROSPERITY. And do not be a partaker of anyones sins!

Keep yourself PURE and HOLY, for i the LORD your GOD am pure and HOLY
Leviticus 19:2

Pastors, Elders, Deacons, need the to have the Holy Spirit to be able to do God's work (The Holy Spirit is the teacher), God is organized NOT disorganized! And all it takes is "One man to make many sinners" & that's why you should seek the LORD for yourself, you always get some people IN church that always want to be buddies with the leadership etc.....that's considered IDOLATRY and I the LORD your GOD am a jealous GOD saith the lord!

Well i better save the preaching for the pulpit aye for my first assignment, unfortunately the church i'm going had NCMI on their website and guess what else!!!!!
Pastor Tyrone Daniels actually prophesied at this church stating that a "?????????" may come from the outside.

If you know Pastor Tyrone Daniels, tell him i sent an email to him yesterday to the branch in Denver Colorado - i would like to speak to him of a private matter.
Galataians 2:2

May the LORD give you unstoppable prosperity as your portion as you read this message!.......IN JESUS NAME!

Anonymous said...

Im afraid that chances are you will not get hold of him as he lives in Australia, and usually does not take emails from people he does not know. In fact it is unlikely that the pastor you sent the email to will have Tyrones email. The NCMI network has something like 33000 churches in it now.

Anonymous said...

Thank you to the person who gave the above reply, however i have a message for him and Faith in my father who sent me to deliver a message. As for not taking emails from people he doesn't know:

1 - Did Jesus ever turn anyone away?

2 - That's why we have the gift of Discernment, so we can discern things that are of God and things that are not!

John 8:47
He who is of God hears God's words:therfore you do not hear, because you are not of God.

Besides i'm sure he'd like to know how spot on his prophecy was in this church and that i'd be the one fulfilling this duty for the lord! However before i fulfill this duty he must do something for the LORD!

Thank you again & God Bless!

Anonymous said...

Tyrone doesn't take emails from people he dosen't know? Ok fair enough but.....

When God wants to tell you something and you don't listen, he uses other people who are not in your "social network" - they are CONTAMINATED!

1 Corinthians 1:26-27

When people get "titles" they forget who got them there "it's called PRIDE" (is everyone else below you?), We must all be careful because you never know when God tests you, he raises Apostles and Prophets all the time and as for the 33000 churches, if you have "PRIDE" attached - YOU NEED TO QUESTION WHO'S KINGDOM YOUR EXTENDING!

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Anonymous said...

Our small town church was taken over by an NCMI pastor. At first it was wondeful as the messages were new and exciting. Then a few of the older members started to question some things, they were not dealt with in a loving manner but told that they were facing Gods judgement if they questioned the leader. Visiting Pastors were brought in, from bigger NCMI churches and actually preached a message on how the church would grow, and become great in the Kingdom , with new members and not the older members as they had an old vision. Older members started to leave and then it was whispered that they were going against the will of God. Leadership meetings became a great manipulative tool. If you went with the leaderships every whim and idea you were invited. If at any time you questioned anything you would find out by a slip of the tongue that there had been a leadership meeting held in secret that you were not invited to. This caused a tremendous amount of rejection. A group of families joined our church that had a reputation in our small town of joining churches , taking over and then destrying the church from within. They were a very talented group of people and really lovely too, but they obviouly had issues and hurts.When some of the older members tried to warn the Leader about this group he was told that we live under Grace. The leader of our church and his wife welcomed them and the wife was heard to say on many occasions"finally people with potential in the church" within weeks this group had taken over the Praise And worship, Youth ministry and various other areas, Older members who were in these areas sometimes only found out on a Sunday morning when they got to church that their services were no longer required.meassages started to be about Leadership , respecting and obeying leadership and if you did not you were not following God. Then there was the friendship before function message and then the "team is Key " message. More and MOre it was about the NcMI mandate and less about the Word of God. After tried so hard to fit in and wanting so desperatly to be part of the leadership and belong , we set aside time to pray and seek God, we felt released to leave our church. We met with the leader and elder, they told us we would face Gods Jugement if we left as GOd had not told them we could leave. After we left not a single person contacted us again. This church family had beem my family for many years. Since then three years later we have still not found a church to settle in and really miss our old church. As a family we still have feelings of rejection. I would caution people against going to an NCMI church. We approached other bigger NCMI churches about what was going on and they told us that they could not do anything unless invited by the Leadership - go figure

Anonymous said...

To the above person who wrote that comment, my heart really goes out to you but to give you some reassurance:


1 TIMOTHY 5:20

I pray that God gives you peace in JESUS NAME!

Anonymous said...

I have been personally devastated by a 2 decade experience with this group - and I can speak with intimacy, real information, experience and deep knowledge of 'it's' workings. It is a cult - there is no question; of course the problem for fundamentalist christians is that they view the 1000+ varieties of their christianism with all the dexterity of a gymnast when it suits their cause..rarely do they have the courage to study true knowledge - ie. verifiable, proven facts...there is always a politik that covers their polemic.
I am contemplating a revealing expose of their behaviors in book form, however for now i can attest that it is a movement that is elitist (yet pretends to be ecumenical); it is heirarchial in the extreme (yet of course purports to be 'flat' or 'level' in leadership style); is highly and dangerously manipulative, coercive, aggressive and practices classic cult like isolationism of former members.
I gave almost a quarter of a century of my life to 'its ideals' and have not one communicant/'fast' friend left to speak of - further I have a decimated former family and finances (pun of 'f's totally intended)...
The leaders are generally all uneducated, and know of little else except the manuals and ncmi speak (this is similar to all cults - ie the leaders books in reality are more important that the 'bible' despite pretense(s) otherwise); patriarchal-ism and sub -servience of women is practiced and 'transfer growth' is endorsed as 'success'.
Crass marketing and charisma oriented leaders are the most successful (of course) - and egregious, deliberate super-wealth is achieved (and sought) by all 'successful' leaders. Smaller churches are absorbed, tax systems cheated and above all members are driven to exhaustion to prove their godliness and 'potential leadership'...
I ask - how is an uneducated man, unskilled in the real world able to own expensive motor vehicles, house(s) and travel more than a foreign minister (of course stopping on the way back for 'rest'/holidays in luxurious locations? And all this at the expense of lower socio-economic persons who are manipulated to give away a tenth of their income - all of which is based on the loose and legalistic writings of an Israeli 'prophet' from a land and time when the earth was deemed to be flat...
Well, I can testify that psychiatry, psychology, medicine and of equal import - genuine, real love from close 'non-religious' family has been indispensable and absolutely necessary to return to some semblance of coping with the world around me.
After 'serving' and being zealous enough to actually do what was preached - I am now poorer than 20 years ago and live alone. Sound familiar? Try google searches on people recovering from cult abuse...
Please dont 'fall' for cute and selective scripture quotation - If you are in Australia and need a genuiine confidential chat - please contact (Cult Information and Family Service)

Anonymous said...

I would say, be careful as well. I have met the most lovely people in my exNCMI church, but I have also learnt that it is OK to say 'I dont agree' but it took me 3 years to be able to say it, after I had left. I feel that if I stayed in that group, their 'ways' keep me a baby. My pastor would say, we are not a triangle with pastor on top, it is triangle with pastor out front.... I eventually realised, a triangle is a triangle no matter what edge it is leaning on. The thing is, they truly believe what they believe and not trying to be deceptive but some of the unbiblical practices are harmful. False doctrines of covering, submission to their authority, tithing, cant leave unless you have their approval.. basically due to believing those things, I was a mess when I left, waiting for my life to fall apart and God leave me, or for me to backslide. Well I am still here and OK and I survived. I went through hell it feels. Some have commented above that we are human so errors in a lot of places - which is true. I still believe they really think they are doing the right thing. So much to say, if you can go and be your own person and not get under law, then go. I would also get disheartened when I heard more about NCMI teaching and authority in my church that Jesus authority. Which is my pastors issues, not NCMI directly. One freeing thing I heard of which a friend told me of her church and it helped - you are free to stay, because you are free to leave. I nearly cried when I heard that. I have been listing to its great. Its been helping.

Anonymous said...

"Careful" is an interesting construct. It describes taking action/making decisions based on what is possible, ultimately possible - by knowledge and fact. For example I would take care crossing the road, more or less according to pre-existing conditions that I know about and observe eg. traffic, weather conditions, day, night...
The problem with religion is that it encourages the absence of any 'real' means to be 'careful' by assuming against all natural and any real evidence that one can trust him/herself to another's view (by this I mean a "leaders view", thousands of years ancient in origin and/or re-created for modernity today) - all on the basis of a totally misunderstood and manipulative idea called 'faith'. Actually in truth it is simply coercion.
Thank goodness medical science does not progress on the basis of people being 'nice' or 'lovely'. I am glad I go to a doctor because he knows things - not because he is warm. lovely and nice. Science and Medicine progress on the basis of the double blind clinical trial - something of course conveniently left out of religious discussion.
The double blind clinical trial relies on the reality and value of doubt which needs then to be tested (over and over) and without prejudice.
We are of course talking about 'truth' aren't we when it comes to religion? Isn't truth the entire reason to be involved (in religion or a god)? So truth then would indicate that real evidence is needed, tests conducted, history investigated and proofs required, correct? It also would clearly reveal it self to be 'true' at every level (not just in a emotive, 'nice' meeting or organisation).
Trust in nice people, charismatic people and of course influential people is a serious malady of our sad human history because humans are so given to meaning being explained by an all knowing 'wise one' - and especially in light of the sheer awe and of our universe.
Perhaps it could be said that the most dangerous of all 'beliefs' comes via trusting charismatic personalities and so - called 'successful' 'models' (especially to the western mind) - and the emotive disregard for 'evidence'.
Soft, nice, love bombing, smiling, non- thinkers are the most dangerous. Especially cloaked in manipulative, 'we're not like everyone else' (but in reality we believe we are better than everyone else) clothing.
NCMI and many, many other FUNDAMENTAL- istic christian movements similarly convey their message under various social control guises - soft music, charismatic personalities, 'cool - relevant environments', placebo based 'miracles' and the notion of 'absolute' knowledge from books written by ignorant men of thousands of years prior...
Of course we MUST give money to these people AND of course we MUST submit and we MUST attend meetings - otherwise the death-thirsty, torture - thirsty "Shauden Freude" 'god' will deal with you! More truthfully, the leader may have to reveal the truth - give up his day job, nice house, overseas travel - and go back to work like the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

"Careful" is an interesting construct. It describes taking action/making decisions based on what is possible, ultimately possible - by knowledge and fact. For example I would take care crossing the road, more or less according to pre-existing conditions that I know about and observe eg. traffic, weather conditions, day, night...
The problem with religion is that it encourages the absence of any 'real' means to be 'careful' by assuming against all natural and any real evidence that one can trust him/herself to another's view (by this I mean a "leaders view", thousands of years ancient in origin and/or re-created for modernity today) - all on the basis of a totally misunderstood and manipulative idea called 'faith'. Actually in truth it is simply coercion.
Thank goodness medical science does not progress on the basis of people being 'nice' or 'lovely'. I am glad I go to a doctor because he knows things - not because he is warm. lovely and nice. Science and Medicine progress on the basis of the double blind clinical trial - something of course conveniently left out of religious discussion.
The double blind clinical trial relies on the reality and value of doubt which needs then to be tested (over and over) and without prejudice.
We are of course talking about 'truth' aren't we when it comes to religion? Isn't truth the entire reason to be involved (in religion or a god)? So truth then would indicate that real evidence is needed, tests conducted, history investigated and proofs required, correct? It also would clearly reveal it self to be 'true' at every level (not just in a emotive, 'nice' meeting or organisation).
Trust in nice people, charismatic people and of course influential people is a serious malady of our sad human history because humans are so given to meaning being explained by an all knowing 'wise one' - and especially in light of the sheer awe and of our universe.
Perhaps it could be said that the most dangerous of all 'beliefs' comes via trusting charismatic personalities and so - called 'successful' 'models' (especially to the western mind) - and the emotive disregard for 'evidence'.
Soft, nice, love bombing, smiling, non- thinkers are the most dangerous. Especially cloaked in manipulative, 'we're not like everyone else' (but in reality we believe we are better than everyone else) clothing.
NCMI and many, many other FUNDAMENTAL- istic christian movements similarly convey their message under various social control guises - soft music, charismatic personalities, 'cool - relevant environments', placebo based 'miracles' and the notion of 'absolute' knowledge from books written by ignorant men of thousands of years prior...
Of course we MUST give money to these people AND of course we MUST submit and we MUST attend meetings - otherwise the death-thirsty, torture - thirsty "Shauden Freude" 'god' will deal with you! More truthfully, the leader may have to reveal the truth - give up his day job, nice house, overseas travel - and go back to work like the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

Just a quick note. My husband and I use to be very much in to NCMI (helping with a church plant, going to conferences, etc...) Like so many we began to see error (as there is many churches) yet when we tried to bring them up to the "Apostolic" we were ignored because the "local church" is independent of NCMI (even IF the head elder is apart of the Apostolic Team). We also discovered that in questioning we became subject to slanderous back-biting and this was from the elders (who said we were their friends). They use to sing a song there "Where the Spirit of the Lord is There is Freedom". Let me tell you there is NO FREEDOM in NCMI. One must follow their "Vision" and don't ask too many deep or theological questions.
After leaving there we are now in a very healthy and yes Denominational church. And it was then that I realized that in NCMI the individual is driven like a goat, as it is all about building "Team", in other words NCMI
Jesus Christ leads us like sheep and He has told us that that is how we are to lead others.
I noticed that this blog was started in 2007, I think the writer should release the NEWS that ROB RUFUS LEFT NCMI OVER A YEAR AGO.

Anonymous said...

I am curious what Stefan has to say with this!!

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jeff said...

hi guys it all sounds like you have had a rough time. wow people can turn around and bit quite hard when things don't go there way. As long as you know the Lord JESUS and he leads you, he will put you in a place where he will Grow you. I am involved in an NCMI church and i love it, God is good and i pray you people forgive those who hurt you because most people would never hurt another on purpose, remember "OFFENSE IS NOT GIVEN, ITS TAKEN". you take offense and you feel hurt.
I pray that this stuff does not hurt your relationship with Jesus, because at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you are Catholic or anglican or NCMI, as long as you have a relationship with God, he is the one we are after not a denomonation.
My Jesus guide you always!!!!!!

Anonymous said...


New Apostolic

Anonymous said...

Dear "jeff" - consider your (own) comments for a moment. Classic 'pass the buck' to the third person (god); condemn the hurt person with brain washed simplification and 'cool speak' (offense not given but taken?); "pray" - another cop out for any ACTUAL human endeavour to right wrongs; 'doesnt matter which church'? - absolute hypocrisy since everyone in your church including you DO BELIEVE it makes a difference (thats why you go to an NCMI church) and then the biggest cop out lie of all lies- 'as long as you have a relationship with god'! How many times is that nauseous 'one liner' mindlessly thrown in when the christian has no idea how to deal with hurt people. In essence what you are saying is - "I cant help you, our church cant, (obviously) god is not interested (although allegedly being omniscient and omnipotent ) unless of course you get more humble (eg attend a church!!!)...and you have a 'relationship with god". Well, what does a relationship with a 'no -show' god, or a no-show disciple "made in his image, filled with his spirit, 'godly' (ie like god) look like jeff? Perhaps we could go around and tell the tsunami victims, the earthquake victims, family victims of war and murderous slaughter, rape victims, the diseased, abandoned, abused...those in slavery, the abject poor, the dying, the parentless, the maritally or realationaly abused - and especially the church abused - 'not to worry'! As long as they have a 'relationship with god'! What idiocy you demonstrate - in fact you reveal the very reason not one hurt person can get genuine help in such a mind- enslaving cult. Its so easy to give (your) awful advice (its no advice actually - just discreet judgmentalism). As long as you're happy doing your clapping in your airconditoned local brain drain centre jeff - and you can go home to your overfed western comfiness - and call your sunday bum on the seat attendance - 'piety' or 'following jesus...I have to admit (and I was one of them) that the christian church - especially the hipster style, 'lets be cool church' - is the furthest away from any notion of human spirituality.

Anonymous said...

Wow . . .! I have read every blog on this site and would like to quote from

Psa 57. "I am in the midst of lions; I lie among ravenous beasts - men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords."

I have belonged to an NCMI relating church for many years and i am shocked by the bitter words i have read in this website. What happened to "Keep on loving each other as brothers" (Heb13v1) or "Obay your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you" (v17) And as for those leaders that stand under your judgement consider v 18. "Pray for us, We are sure we have a clear conscience and desire to live honorably in every way."

But most of all "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever and ever. Amen." "Grace be with you all"

Anonymous said...

NCMI came to the nation of Canada about 10 years ago now. Although I believe that NCMI has something to say to the church in Canada, they need to understand that this is not South Africa. They need to hang their culture on the cross where Jesus died and honour this nation and Canadians. The first leader they sent to this nation caused so much hurt to so many that wonderful, gifted leaders actually fled the area to get away from the control. They have lost the respect of so many. It is so sad, because many folks seem to be honest, sincere people who love Jesus and want to see the kingdom of God come to earth. So sad because they have lost their credibility.

Anonymous said...

I have been in argument with NCMI since I joined. Lack aof love, mass control, (I am in charge and you follow my lead), cross community gossip on leadership level< (YOu will do so because I say so... ANd my question was: but scripture says.... ) ALso told I am not in submission to my husband.... MY gusband found that funny, when we moved on they wanted to bless us to go, and I was Yea right, so what is wrong with God's blessing. I agree that there succes is built on the kind of leadership they choose, Businessmen. In my book it is one of the most succesfull businesses in the world. Also, once you leave (on good terms) no one prays for you anymore because you do not belong to the club. Sorry , business, ok... NCMI. I am sick to the core of people who will not allow others to grow in God themselves and control an manipulate in the Name of Jesus, forgot who the Father is and in BIG ROUND LeTTerS operate under the holy spirit.... O yes if you play gholf your chances are good at getting into the flow of things.

Zimmy said...

I am currently a member of a NCMI affiliated church, and I think they are just doing what god has put on their hearts to do! So please stop gossiping on this blog and let our father in heaven doing the judging! Our father in heaven is in charge of our church, so if you are not happy, then maybe you should be praying for our father in heaven to sort it out!
Your words are very powerful and what you speak in this world is heard in the spiritual realm, so please don't say anything, if its negative. We are called to build up! not down! Just remember if its positive it's of the lord and if it's negative then usually it's of the evil one tearing apart the body of Christ.
If you would like to warn other people of your experience at ncmi, all you have to say is that you don't agree with their teachings! Period!! Not slander them. For you will be judged on every word you have spoken.

Anonymous said...

@Zimmy, To be honest, maybe you believe you are going to be judged and live under that, I really don't.

The cross paid everything...past, present and future. Thats all.

Anonymous said...

@Zimmy...oh thank you for that.

I'm not even getting into this argument but let me just say...I am so sorry that you live under condemnation you don't have to because honey, you don't have to. You DO NOT have to.

According to your logic you had best not be sinning or you are going to be judged for it, and in my mind that makes what Christ did on the cross obsolete. You may want to listen to some of Rob Rufus' stuff on this!

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Anonymous but known to God said...

I joined NCMI 20 years ago. I was a writer/journalist and helped them begin a ministry to the community with a monthly magazine with book reviews etc, but mostly with the “speak” that came from the top. I was a young Christian and felt I was serving God and the people whom He loves. One night I went to a leadership meeting run by Rob Rufus, Chris Wienand and a newcomer Fini de Gesigny. What I witnessed was firsthand and could possibly be a court action. All the leaders met at a plush beachside hotel in Durban, the Elangeni, I think.

They were practising for the big meeting the next day when the lesser mortals i.e. those who were not leaders, would be there. Fini de gesigny would pretend to be slain in the spirit when Rob gave the que, jumping, laughing hysterically and falling on the floor. I believe he still performs this act in Sydney somewhere.
Rob had a petite blonde wife, with much makeup sitting in the front pew looking at God I expect doing his bit out the front. I was a little devastated that God somehow became a plaything of men, like I was witnessing a circus practice before the main event.

I got married 6 months later, thankfully to an academically minded Jew who has great regard for God. He is stable as I believe God is stable. I have been reading of people, families, young and old who have been hurt by what has become a vast engaging organism of coercion and egocentric behaviour. I pray for those people whose letters I have read that God would help you to know how loved you are, and that He is a God of great integrity and truth. Serve Him always but stay very clear of NCMI.

I am a Catholic, now I see Christ on the cross when I go to mass, not men playing games.

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Anonymous said...

I have been involved in an NCMI church in the USA for several years now. It is the most healthy, well balanced church I have attended in my 20 years as a born-again Christian. I have been a member of most denominational churches along the way as well as bible churches, AOG, Calvary Chapel, you name it. I have been in leadership in several of these churches. What I appreciate most is the blend of the Spirit and the Word in my curent church. Never an over-reliance on one versus the other. I have had an opportunity to meet Tyrone Daniel, and while he may have some of that South African swagger, he is a genuine lover of Jesus who has impressed me a great deal. I have met a number of their trans-local apostolic team members and have found them all to be down to earth, lovers of God, servants of man.

To the person who posted about staged Slayings in the Spirit and all the nonsense that was purported to go along with it, trust me, we have NEVER had anything silly or out of control like that happen. Our elders are ever saw anything like that in my church, trust me,

It is important to remember that each local church that "relates" to NCMI is independent and thus, can be very different from one another. There may indeed be some that are controlling, or have some of the other issues noted in this blog, but I can tell you, NCMI itself is NOT a cult, it is not controlling, but IS an excellent covering over the local church - as long as the local church receives that covering as biblically intended.

For those of you who have been hurt in local churches that related to NCMI over the years, I am both saddened and shocked at your experiences, mine is 180 degrees in the other direction. I would submit that you need healing! I suggest that you read John Bevere's book, "The Bait of Satan." I hope and pray that you will find healing and be able to move on from your past.

Life is too short to be so trapped and bound up by offense. Forgive and move on so you can serve the Lord with your whole heart.

I hate coming off sounding like some NCMI apologist, which I am not, but I think the positives about NCMI (and certainly my local church's expression of NCMI) are excellent, and need to be voiced.

I am sure I'll get blasted for being so positive... :-)

Anonymous said...

please read about the Easter Debacle.

Unknown said...

Well, after 5 years of serving in a NCMI church I call it 'Never COmmit Myself Idiot' I have been kicked out.

This NCMI church is the FONTEIN in Coevorden (Netherlands)

First respons to a disagreement, it is unbiblical, the second they say, you are hurt, but if you insist in your disagreement, they consider you as a thread to unity, a tool of the devil, and you harrash Jesus Christ himself!

I have noticed the do not deal with the argument itself. They are not interested in your argument, they just ignore you. If you adresses these issues loader (the theme was openness) they excommunicate you with a mail and put people at the front door, so you cannot visit the sermon.

I found de elders stuborn and not teachable. I called other apostle to get mediation. They told me to go on with my life, because the elders are done with me.

In my opion Gijs Peter Kuijpers and Alex Zaal treath people not right. This is not good. Even my children were not allowed to visit the last evening of the teenage bible study to see goodbye to their friends.

That is the love of Christ I experienced in the Fontein. Kicked out, nomatter the social connections you have in that church.

I made a website to adress a warning, because it is a cult. I believe every NCMI church is controlling and manipulating and it is only about money and real estate. Not about Jesus. Like someone else stated here... RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

For the dutch people in Coevorden, please take a look here

Anonymous said...

A few thoughts about the offences, and the long record of wrongs that people have listed here against NCMI or NCMI churches. What amazes me is that people can make the accusations and judgments they do and feel they are so just and right and holy in making them, and even think that they are being godly and Christ-like. They present themselves as followers of Christ and people of the Word when in fact they reject the both Christ and His Word.

God Speaks His will regarding these things clearly in His Word, but I don't have a high expectation that those who have willingly chosen to reject the very clear Word of God and to walk under the control of with the accuser of the brethren, and to live in the strongholds of division, offences, and unforgiveness, will even hear God Himself through His Word.

What does God say about obeying Christ and the Word of God?

Jesus said, "why do you call me Lord Lord and do not do the things that I say"

John 14:23-24 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

James 1:23-27 "Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it — he will be blessed in what he does. 26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless.

What does God call every believer to do and to not do in His Word?

John 13:34-35 34 "A new command I give you: LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AS I HAVE LOVED YOU, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

What is the love of God like, and what does it mean to love others the way God love us?

1 Cor 13:4-6 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, IT KEEPS NO RECORD OF WRONGS.

Hmmmm love keeps no record of wrongs? If God's love "keeps no record of wrong", then are those who keep and list records of wrong walking in God's love toward their brothers who's lists of wrong they are keeping? God says that those who do not love their brother do not love God.

How does Jesus forgive us and what does he do with our sin?

Ps 103:12 "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

Rom 4:5-8 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THEY WHOSE TRANSGRESSIONS ARE FORGIVEN, WHOSE SINS ARE COVERED. 8 BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NEVER COUNT AGAINST HIM"

Heb 8:12 "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

"Love keeps no record of wrong" Love "remembers sin no more".Love "forgives their wickedness"

Here Jesus is justifying the WICKED, crediting them as Righteous, forgiving their transgressions, covering their sin and never counting their sin against them.

Eph 1:7 7 "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace" cont.....

Anonymous said...

And here you are condemning those who believe in Jesus, calling them unrighteous, rather than forgiving their transgressions, you condemn them for what you believe is their transgression, rather than covering their sin, you uncover what you believe to be their sin, and rather than loving and forgiving like Jesus, who does not hold their sin against them, you hold what you perceive to be their sin against them. And then you set yourselves up as being so godly and so righteous as to judge and condemning others.

You profess to be followers of Christ and of God, then your words and actions toward other believers, who are your brothers and Jesus brothers, the Bride of Christ whose robes have been washed by the blood of the lamb, and you your heart and your words are not the heart of Christ, should be the words of Christ, the ways or Christ, and the work of Christ. Rather, your words and actions are exactly the opposite. You speak the words and do the works of of the accuser of the Brethren.

Listen to how John describes the Spirit of Anti-Christ in 1 John 4:

1 John 4:1-3 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but EVERY SPIRIT THAT DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE JESUS IS NOT FROM GOD. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world."

Consider what a false prophet and a spirit that is not from God does: A spirit that is A false prophet, does not acknowledge JESUS, and according to the next verse, rather than speaking God's word or God's perspective, the spirit that is not from God and a false prophet, speaks man's perspective and speaks the viewpoint of the world.)

1 John 4:5-12 5 "THEY ARE FROM THE WORLD (how do you tell?) THEREFORE THEY SPEAK FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF THE WORLD, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and WHOEVER KNOWS GOD listens to us; but WHOEVER IS NOT FROM GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO US. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

The Spirit that is from God speaks and does the truth that is from God, the spirit of falsehood does not speak or do the truth that is from God. NOTICE IN THE VERY NEXT VERSE what the truth that is from God is.

I JOHN 4:7-8 "Dear friends, let us love one another, FOR LOVE COMES FROM GOD. EVERYONE WHO LOVES IS BORN OF GOD AND KNOWS GOD.. 8 WHOEVER DOES NOT LOVE DOES NOT KNOW GOD, BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE. (now notice verse 9: It clearly says how God shows his love. Those who know God will show God's love by loving in exactly the same way God does)

I John 4:9,10 "This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."

(Did you get that? God's love is demonstrated by atoning for sin. God's love is shown in forgiveness of sins!! Speaking this about others and walking in this way is what it means to be of God. To not speak or be this way toward others is to be of this world and to walk in the Spirit of falsehood)
1 John 4:11,12 "Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."

DID YOU GET THAT!! Why should we love one another? Since God loved us and demonstrated it by atoning for our sin and forgiving us, we ought to love others exactly the same way that God does - by forgiving their sins?

Anonymous said...

John 4:16-18 "God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17 In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, BECAUSE IN THIS WORLD WE ARE LIKE HIM."

How is God's love complete among us? By being like God in this world. By loving like God does in this world. In what way? By loving the way He loves. How does He love? By forgiving our sins.

1 John 4:20-21 "If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother."

But what if you do not speak what God speaks or love the way God loves or forgive the way God forgives? What if you are not like God in this world? Then you are not speaking from God, or acting from God. You are acting contrary to God and contrary to Christ. Christ forgives, you don't forgive. Christ loves and forgives and covers sin and remembers it no more. And you do not love the way He loves, rather against Christ and the Spirit of God you keep record of wrong do not forgive. You are not operating in the Spirit of Christ or speaking for Christ, you are operating in a Spirit that is the opposite of Christ and anti-Christ.

This is a very scary place to be. Not only disobeying Christ, but speaking and doing the opposite of Christ.

Ok then, what if the person really is an enemy of God and an enemy of ours? Surely we are justified in our judging and condemning speech and actions against them!!

Matt 5:43-44 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
Luke 6:28-36 27 28 BLESS THOSE WHO CURSE YOU, PRAY FOR THOSE WHO MISTREAT YOU. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 BUT LOVFE YOUR ENEMIES AND DO GOOD TO THEM and lend to them not expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, AND YOU WILL BE THE SONS OF THE MOST HIGH BECAUSE HE IS KIND TO THE UNGRATEFUL AND THE WICKED. 36 BE MERCIFUL JUST AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS MERCIFUL."

Where in your words of accusation and condemnation toward those you being like your Father in Heaven and doing good to them you felt mistreated you. In what way are you being like your Father in heaven?

Just a few more verses that God calls us to walk like Christ in:

Col 3:12-14 12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 BEAR WITH EACH OTHER AND FORGIVE WHATEVER GRIEVANCES YOU MAY HAVE AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. FORGIVE IN THE SAME WAY THE LORD FORGAVE YOU. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Are you full of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience toward those in NCMI or NCMI churches

Anonymous said...

Matt 7:1-5 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Prov 6:16-19 16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:....And one who sows discord among brethren.

Isaiah 58:9 "Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I. If you do away with ....with the pointing finger and malicious talk.

Rev 12:9 "the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan....the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Eph 4:1-6 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 BE COMPLETELY HUMBLE AND GENTLE, BE PATIENT, BEARING WITH ONE ANOTHER IN LOVE. MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO KEEP THE UNITY OF THE SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE. 4 There is one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Rom 15:5-9 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 ACCEPT ONE ANOTHER< THEN, JUST AS CHRIST HAS ACCEPTED YOU, in order to bring praise to God.

In what way are you accepting others in the same way that Christ accepted you in your actions toward people in NCMI or NCMI churches?

James 4:11-12 11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you — who are you to judge your neighbor?

There is a lot here. But it is necessary to feel the full weight of Scripture in this matter. These are not small off in the corner commandments of Jesus. When you consider that to reject these passages and to refuse to walk in them is, as 1 John says, to reject Christ, to walk contrary to Christ, to walk in the spirit of this world, and even to function in a spirit that is anti-Christ, it sheds light on the fact that it is a “log’ that is in your own eye as you are trying to expose the “mote” in someone else’s eye.

MIke Smith said...

I dated someone who was an attendee at NCMI in Asia 10 years ago. After several months she told me that I would have to join her church and accept only Jesus as my father. I realized she had been brainwashed and we split up. At that point I was a lapsed Christian with no particular view on religion but I evolved into strong atheism because of it. She was angry and unpleasant because I would not abandon my parents, family and financial security for the insanity of NCMI as she had done.

All religion is a cult. There is no god. Arguing the difference between religions is like arguing the difference between star wars and star trek. Sometimes interesting and even sometimes moral stories but pure fantasy used by the dangerous and power hungry for their own ends.

There is no god.

Anonymous said...

Living hope pastor makes in access of $250,000 per year ,hired JD april of 2014. JD paid $230,000 cash for home in vancouver, wa. Where did this poor pastor find that kind of cash. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Anonymous said...

Does anyone have any idea of the direction of Livinghope Church these days?

Oldest son David is a Heroin addict who once was in recovery. Pastor John Bishop is said to have building a home in Cabo San Lucas area of Mexico. Citing many trips with tax write-offs in the name of starting a church in Mexico. How convenient.

Whole extended family are pastors of this and that function. The senior pastor has been absent for a while now with no explanation. Is he facing his own demons of addiction. Many (countless) employees are now former since the addition of Jon Daniel.

Never any financials given to the congregation and they have many due to members who invested in the church almost 5 years ago.

Does anyone have insight to the truth because I have never been able to find the truth.